Manual, your posting policy makes sense to me.   I'm not clubbing nearly as much as I used to but I've written a LOT about my clubbing over the last 12 years.  In that time I've ID'd a lot of dancers and I've kept quiet about some others.  I once kept my DOY's name a secret all year until after she'd quit dancing.  There are various reasons for declining to ID a dancer, the best ones entirely selfish.     I figure that when guys start paying me to get lap dances and review them, then they will have a right to know the various details, including names.  Until then, they should be happy with whatever info I'm willing to volunteer at no cost to them.    

I'm the opposite of lopaw.  Since I'm normally such a cheapskate (5 to 10 % tips for good laps), I used to give my faves a hundred or more at Xmas and/or birthdays.  I thought of it as a gift rather than a tip.  This was back when I HAD faves, like the mid 00s.  Okay, I've still got one maybe.  

Manual, true what you say, for some strippers.   But there are also some hot-looking strippers who surely get male attention outside the club and who are serious about making money inside the club who will favor the occasional hunk with extra mileage or extra time outside the booth.  Human nature: For many people if not most, sex occasionally wins out over money.   Paris at Silver Reign was such a dancer.  She told me she would sometimes tell a guy with the good-loox gene, "You can thank your mom and dad for that dance."  (I was never that guy.) 

I don't much like to ask girls for dances -- I figure I shouldn't have to go out of my way to spend money -- but I would shamefully go and run a dancer down before I bought a lap from a girl I wasn't that attracted to just to prove to all the dancers in the club that I would spend money.  In over a decade of clubbing I don't think I've done that even once, and until now, it never occurred to me that anybody else would.     I don't get boycotted often, probably because I tend to go to clubs where I'm recognized.  I do sometimes have a problem if girls know I'm typically there for Dancer X.  But for whatever the reason, when none of the fish are biting, my usual response is to leave.  There's nothing wrong with being a few bills to the good after a trip to the SC, and there are other fishing holes and other fish in the sea. 

1. Wynter -- was at DVI 2. Dominique -- Rio (Figueroa) 3. Kai -- Jet 4. Alexa -- was at SRI 5. Monica -- Jet (rare visitor)

If you can find Wynter or Yvette at DVI, there's your hot Asian dance, but they've been scarce lately. Naomi at Silver Reign takes care of her regs on the dayshift; I have not been so favored. Asia at the Bare will make you happy; not my scene, but looks good. I buy from Kai at the Jet; decidedly MID-mileage, but sweet and sensual.

Well, naturally, song lengths vary by club and by whether it's a special or not and maybe by day of the week or time of day.  When I go to clubs, which tends to be in the late afternoon and early evening, something like 2:45 or 3 mins is common for a single-song dance.     It's 2:55 at the Jet Strip, controlled by computer, and has been so for a number of years.  Specials run 4 mins or a bit more.  Bare Elegance is similar, but there is greater variation from one song to the next.  Song length at SRI is also variable but reliably averages out to around 2:40 -- which has also been constant for several years.  Specials can run anywhere from around 3:30 to over 5 mins in toto.  SR downtown LA had been shorter but seems now closer to the COI club.  At Silver Reign single songs run around 2 mins to 2:15, as they have for quite a few years.  That's all the clubs I've been to more than a couple times lately.  

rusl, I agree with your criteria, every one. But don't forget the most important one: She has to show up for work!

She's back, or at least was, as of a month ago, when she was planning to work most Tuesdays (double shifts).

May be too obvious to state, but it depends a lot on the club and the dancer. This was asked on the old Z-Bone and one dancer-poster said guys would cum about a third of the time. I got the same answer from one of the lower-mileage girls at Silver Reign.

FrKr, nice post.

No hate on my part . . . I just know the club's limitations and can have a good time within those. So, how'd it go for you?

Okay, well, I'm not sure I believe all your numbers, but okay, say the girls bring in $1800 to the club. And suppose you're right that the staff costs $1800. So, the girls' revenue pays the staff expense. That leaves stuff like electricity & supplies -- relatively minor stuff. The rent is "free," because it doesn't cost more rent to keep the place open during the day. (Actually, I doubt the staff cost the club anywhere near $1800 per day.)

Hmm . . . Night shifts subsidize day shifts? Surely, lower revenue during daytime, but some costs are lower as well. Seems hard to believe that the day shifts could be losing money. Why would they open the club during the day then?

Hah! Well, if I thought $250 was too much for the Jet, $350 is even worse. And I'm not paying $250 for topless. As for girls, though, actually, the only reliable report I've heard of a dancer leaving the Jet (aside from the usual churn) was regarding Jazmyne. Long-time Jet dancers who are still at the club include Hennessy, Savanna, Teddi, Gia, Danielle, India, Rebecca, Sabrina, Danielle, Kai, Kiera, Danni, Marie, and the aforementioned Victoria.

Just short of 3 mins -- computer-controlled, so every dance is the same. Occasional specials tack a "free" extra minute or minute and a quarter to the front.

Once again . . . I did have a dance with Victoria and it was okay . . . not great, okay. Now, that was one dance, and it was a few years ago, things might have changed. Just to avoid confusion on the part of club newbies: The Jet refers to the $30 & $40 lap dances as the "VIP." The higher rent district is called the "Premier Lounge." Sposed to make everybody feel special, I guess. $350? I thought they had cut the price to $250 and it had stayed there. I've not yet, I mean I've not in recent years found a dancer who gave "VIP" laps at the Jet that I thought of sufficient quality that I thought warranted a run at the "Premier Lounge."

Brings to mind my great favorite Autumn dancing to Muddy Waters at SRI, and, more recently, the black Amazon Keira at the Jet Strip, to the same music.

Well, of course, there'll have to be a City Titty Committee to tell the pretty titties from the shitty. I'd sign up for that.

I agree with your general physical description, but I have to note one thing: Nipple rings are a major turnoff for me. Just thought I'd note that, in case anyone else feels the same way, before they get too excited. Glasses, on the other hand, are a different story. Lulu's on my "to do" list.

Thanks. She looked pretty good to me, though lacking in the derriere dept, and yes, older gals can be strong lappers, so I filed her in the "future interest" category. Now I can move her to the "no need 2 lap" category.

nonfat said:Silver Reign in WLA is dark and tiny (if it's still open) and qbg is a walking database for that place. Heh-heh.  Or maybe I was, until a few years ago.  I hardly go any more.  Songs are too short and too expensive, and now that the place has been rehabbed, it's more difficult to get a good lap there, especially in the evening.     Speaking of Silver Reign, somebody mentioned Ardyce!?  She's still dancing??  I remember Ten 4's review of a lap with her, back when Silver Reign was Platinum.  I remember visiting the new Silver Reign downtown and finding her there.  Talk about a dead club!  The DJ walked off, the music stopped, and it was just me and Ardyce in the dark and the silence.  She started whistling . . . "If I were a Rich Man" . . . all the way through.  Years later, I went to this club Shenanigans in the Valley, at saxbeat's suggestion.  And there again . . . Ardyce!       

I used to share a lot of info about faves, but I no longer do.   There is one good reason for not doing so, and that is it can draw attention to them -- attention from other dancers, attention from management, attention from LE.  None of those is good.     It also draws attention from other PLs, which can be good or bad.  Good, if the girl is not doing that well and might quit if she doesn't get more customers.  Bad, if she's doing okay already, in which case I don't need the competition from other PLs -- I figure I might get a better dance if I'm the girl's 5th customer that day than if I'm the 15th.   Of course, these years, not many are doing well.  

Yes, I've also had dances that were so bad I was laughing. The girl would say, "Why are you smiling?" I'd have to reply, "Oh, I'm having a lot of fun." Worst recent dances: Simone, a black girl last fall at the Bare; Jocelyn, around the same time, at the Jet. This post was edited by qbg at June 26, 2012 8:10 PM PDT

Typically, for me, I establish a pattern of visiting, and then it may make sense to ask the dancer for an email or phone number so I can check with her on when she's working, e.g., "Your shifts are kind of unpredictable; is there a way I can get hold of you?" The eventual result may be an OTC visit, but usually not. Anyway, I'm not really looking for friendship with a dancer (or more to the point, they're not interested in friendship with me), a very few exceptions notwithstanding.

For me, texting with club faves is all about days and times, appearances and disappearances. I don't chit-chat via text. These days, though, I'm not clubbing enough for it to make sense for me to hold more than a couple numbers.

Heh. Sounds like they're better off without her attention.

It's the VIP at Rio that's open. You can have fun there, but girl quality in that club is pretty low, IMO. There are usually 1 or 2 lookers on day shift, but it goes down quickly after them. Not as good as Synn's dayshift, overall.

I would be willing to pay a $10 tax on entry if in return the relevant local jurisdictions guaranteed that clubs (1) could open and operate in any area of town they wished, subject to reasonable zoning, (2) could design their interiors in any way they saw fit, and (3) could carry out their normal business operations without interference from the police. A fair trade, I'd say.

Well, the profile page gives them a venue for advertising their lineups that doesn't also have to serve as a venue for negative reviews. The drawback is that those lineups are thus in an unexpected place and not many PLs are likely to see them. Because I'm mainly interested in the RCs anyway, it works for me. If I want to review the club, I can post in the Forum. This post was edited by qbg at May 20, 2012 9:55 PM PDT

2) I also have a suggestion for a different look: Clothes. (Shadow, formerly of Silver Reign, would wear an A-line dress (nothing underneath) and glasses.) 4) Ha ha ha ha ha! 6) Agree. I wouldn't call it interfering with advertising so much as disrespecting the poster for providing info (and possibly dissuading future such posts) when other users would find the info helpful.

Can anybody help me find this club's page?   OK, it's here:  http://zbone.com/profile/Rhino1   But I know that only through a fortuitous link on the home page.     It is not listed among the (only) 2 clubs given under "Industry" ("popular cities").   It does not show up under "Browse Clubs" letter S   It does not show up in a search for "Spearmint Rhino" location "Industry"

safir said:It looks like Saturday afternoon is going to be your best bet. Madison usually checks in between 11 and noon, and stays until 6 pm.  qbg> Yes, but she's not listed on jetstrip.com for this Saturday, and that's often right on the dayshift.  Best to call.

Safir may have more reliable info, but I see from the Jet club page that Madison has shown up, or was scheduled to show up, each of the past three Saturdays. If you're going to the club just to see her, call first; they should tell you whether she's there. (See jetstrip.com for contact info.) Note, there is no Sunday afternoon shift at the Jet.

Thanks. Very helpful. I've been thinking about paying a visit to this club.

If you have money to burn and can make a day shift, you might try Silver Reign in West LA. Bella is 5-11 and of Amazonian build; she is youngish, however. Mandy is a half-inch taller but slender, doesn't show very often these days. Trixie is MILFy and something of a looker at that, HM to boot, slender, avg height, and has fake ones. Naomi is tall for an Asian and kinda thick, reputedly HM but I haven't yet partaken. If you can make day shifts, you can find older "girls" at almost any club. Most clubs employ girls in their 30s, if not 40s. The Jet Strip has two in the latter category. Rachel at Bare Elegance is a true looker in her 30s, tallish with some weight on her. These are lower-mileage clubs, though.

Z Bone said:The second sub-thread was about having the club reviews in the forum, which is diluting the review under the club. Of course, this can easily be solved by deleting that section of the forum. That might be a good solution to that problem. Give me any feedback on that here. There may be some benefit to killing the club review section of the forum.  I check the forum tab for latest posts, but I don't go to the club reviews section unless the latest post is for a club that interests me.  If it isn't, I don't go, and I might miss an earlier post that does interest me.  It's more convenient to have all reviews on the club page.   The objection to that might be that you post a club review in the Forum when you want a broader audience than just the "in" group of club fans on the club page.  Or maybe you want to post a review that compares clubs.   But these could be posted under "Anything Goes." Personally, it matters little to me, as what few reviews I see of clubs I like tend to be on the club pages anyway. 

Ronin's post about mileage -- enough mileage, not enough mileage -- made me think that he tries to let dancers know what kind of lap he likes.  Whether that's true or not, it brings to mind a question:  Do you coach your dances on their laps?   I'm curious, because I don't, unless the girl is doing something really uncomfortable.  Typically, I let the girl do what she wants.  I figure it's part of the audition.  Like a test.  More to the point, I don't want to pull the girl out of her comfort zone.  That's usually a loser.  Trying to turn a bouncy dancer into a sensual dancer tends not to work.  If she felt good about being sensual, that's the way she'd be.  If she doesn't, she just becomes a lousy sensual dancer.     Sometimes, a dancer is able to figure me out without coaching.  Obviously, extra points for that kind of effort.  I will notice a girl gets better each time.  My ATF (that is, all-time No.1) was like that.  First time or two, rough going.  Looks & personality kept her on my card.  Fourth time, she blew me away.   My all-time No. 2 (vice-ATF?) was good from the get-go, but she let on later that it took 2 or 3 times for her really to get the hang of it, as it were; she was reading me and I didn't even know it.   Anybody else?  Coaches?  Slugs?  

NY, I've found that also depends on the kind of club I go to. At a club where a dancer is making $6 or $12 a dance, and there are lots of guys around, the girl has to move her butt out of my vicinity pretty quickly or she's not gonna make any money. If she's making $20 or $25 a dance and there aren't many guys to choose from, she might sit for quite awhile--more than is justified by the laps or drinks I've bought. Also depends on "club culture." Some clubs are chatty clubs, some aren't.

I like girls that are on the thick side in the club -- curvy. If I were young enough for it to matter, same would go outside the club, but for serious, potential long-term relationships, I wouldn't go for the curvy girl outside the club, because girls who are curvy at 25 or 30 tend to become just plain old fat at 35 or 40. Some exceptions, of course, but I play the averages -- except in the SC, where it doesn't matter what that girl's going to look like 10 years from now.

I realize that dancer responses will be met with skepticism by some, but since some interest has also been expressed, and for whatever it may be worth, I found emma’s post, which I believe was from July of ’04.  Old, but has some relevance, I think, and it just goes to show, this topic is never settled.  Emma danced in various clubs, including the Century Lounge near LAX, and posted occasionally.  She responds to a PL whom I will designate as X, and who had been expressing some variant of the dancer-contempt-for-PLs view.  Her post follows verbatim, with some side issues not relevant to the current dust-up deleted.   All: Thank you Qbg, Benn, Sax, Delta, et al for encouraging me to speak up. Okay, here's the deal: Sax has beckoned, I will answer.   Most girls who I talk to, who I think try to maintain a healthy attitude towards dancing and life in general do not AT ALL think of their customers in the terms that X supposed in his original post. In fact, I'm pretty sure the term PL was coined by you guys, wasn't it? Maybe some of you guys have some guilt or shame or whatever issue when patronizing clubs, but it's not fair or accurate to project that feeling onto the girls and then put words into their mouth as to what they may be thinking when they're giving you a lapdance. X, your recent posts have been particularly self-effacing (got guilt?), and when you combine that with pointedly ascerbic phrasing and assumptions into the thoughts/viewpoints of the average dancer you start veering into that slippery slope I'll call PL propoganda. As dancers we spend at least six hours in the club per day, however many times per week. Do you think, over the long haul, it would be beneficial to have deep-seated resentment towards every man who walks through the door, just because he's there? What kind of mind-fuck would that be? You'd be subjecting yourself to constant misery. Most girls I know try to look for the best in each customer. In fact they'll often say to each other, "Oh, you should go dance with so-and-so, he's really nice/cool/funny/sweet, whatever." This does not always have to do with money, in fact it rarely does. It's more to do with the man, HIS openness, his sensitivity. You guys are constantly harping on girls who are jaded, but perhaps you've never stopped to think how difficult it is to give a lapdance to a guy who is jaded; it's damn near impossible. His contempt/boredom/been there-done that doesn't exactly inspire a girl to do her best. Yes, I know, I know, you're paying for it, yes, you should be able to sit back and let her do all the work...But you catch more bees with honey, and you'd be surprised how much more precious mileage you could get if YOU seemed into it. So, anyway X, no, most girls do not start out the dance thinking "Oh this pathetic/loser/moron/dweeb you-fill-in-the-blank is going to pay me to wiggle on his lap, what an idiot." Not at all. They think, if they've never met him, "I hope he's nice. I hope he likes the way I dance. I hope, despite the dj's blabbering, or the crazy managers, or the drama in the dressing room, or the wierd stalker hanging out at the ATM machine, that this guy, right here and now, will somehow see through all the bullshit in this club and appreciate me if I try my best." That's pretty much it.

My two cents: Humans vary. Dancers are human. Ergo, dancers vary. Some dancers have only contempt for their customers. Some do not feel that way. I do not know what the percentages are, and, short of an opinion poll, I think it'd be difficult for anyone else to know, either, given the incentives to lie. Do dancers, or some dancers, enjoy interacting with their customers? If enjoyment cannot be had when there is something else one would rather be doing, then I doubt dancers enjoy interacting with their customers. If there are degrees of enjoyment, so that one can enjoy doing something even when there is something else that one would rather do, then it's possible that some dancers enjoy interacting with some customers. Like Manual, I'd like to hear a dancer opinion (while reserving the right, like Tillrules, to be skeptical). FWIW, this issue has been well aired on more than one occasion on the old ZBB. Dancer-posters like Frosty and Emma have been emphatic in their disagreement with the "only contempt for customers" notion, have taken some offense at it, and have expressed bewilderment over why some guys have come to believe that or feel the need to do so.

And, regarding the forum tickler on the home page: Without prejudice to anyone else's views, but just to offer another data point, FWIW -- I don't pay any attention to it; I didn't know it was there. I usually ignore home page "latest" streams, because they typically don't organize info in a way I find useful. Here, I go to the Forum tab, look down the list of topics and late postings, and check out what interests me. Aaah . . . I went to a club today. As I raise my fingers from my keyboard to pick my nose, I smell that unmistakable, undiluted fragrance of dancer. I've missed that.

I don't see the problem with directing readers via a "more" arrangement to a review on another page, esp. if that page has a longer lifespan than the "stream." Nobody is making that click? There are 8 reviews on the Jet Strip page, each with 200 to 400 views. Not viral, but 400 views is a lot of nobody. (Okay, my own review's score is helped out by my own 100 views of it, but that's an exception.) True that having club reviews in the Forum is confusing, but that's inherited from the original Z Bone. Could be fixed, but it could also have a legit purpose. The real problem is that there are only 8 reviews (which is 8 more than on some of "my" other clubs), and little discussion of clubs I'm interested in. This is a big change from Z 1.0. But I don't blame the site structure. If I can figure out how to post, and I was unfamiliar with the Facebook style, so can anybody else. I don't think it's a site structure problem. Or not entirely.

NY's scale is the closest yet to the way I've used those terms myself, when I've used them, which has not been often. But there are minor differences, and it seems to me unlikely that an unruly group like this is going to fall into place behind one particular system. My favorite line is in Manual's latest post: HM = LM = HM. That about says it all. But suppose we could all agree on what everything from VGM through UHM means. How would we apply it? "Flopsie is HM"? "UHM is regularly had at Ellifino"? This just cycles back to previous discussions about what can be safely said on this site.

For the COI clubs, HM has had what I believe to be a pretty well accepted meaning that is higher up the scale than how either saxbeat or Tillrules defines it. What this discussion goes to show is there isn't much agreement as to what these terms mean, with a lot of it depending on the range of the PL's own experience. As a result, when somebody says Flopsie is HM, I don't know what to expect. Mileage descriptions are perhaps best pegged to the club: average for the club, above, below. For clubs on the whole, pegged to other clubs: higher than X, lower than Y. And I agree with mocha & caliente: at a given mileage level, dance quality can vary quite a bit -- and that can translate into differences in dancer income. This post was edited by qbg at April 4, 2012 7:49 PM PDT

I must not get around enough. I haven't seen PL used as a derogatory term (following the initial usage that Z Bone describes). I use it as a synonym for "customer," a group that includes me. I admit it carries a slightly unsavory aura, which I think is a plus: Clubbing is not the best way to be spending time or money. I hope not too many guys disagree with that. I haven't seen ATF used to suggest, by itself, any special relationship beyond the usual in-club fave-reg "relationship." I don't use the term myself. Literally, it means one's all-time No. 1. Most PLs use it to refer to a current fave, or maybe several of same. I use "fave" for that.

Ha! Not me! My faves tend to have average faces, or a little better, even IMO. I would go for the hip-thigh module, myself.

I track your first sentence. However, there is no "However . . ." There is no name below the name field with an X after it. This may be a result of my continuing to use the OS that came with the iMac four and a half years ago -- OS 10.4 (Tiger). It's also the same Safari, and, while Firefox was more recently acquired, it tells me it's not fully updated, but couldn't be anyway given the OS I'm using. In my experience, not updating frees me from a lot of hassles, but there are drawbacks.

Okay, more info. I overcame the problem of the addressee's name going away when I stopped using the tab key to get from one field to the next. Used the mouse instead. Message looked ready to go when I finished, hit send, got an error window: "Send To: This field must be filled in." No way to get rid of the error message, no way to get back to the "send to" window, which still had the addressee's name in it anyway.