LouASS said: Tillrules said:You have to go experience them for yourself. She looks even more amazing and the new boobs feel and look fantastic. -->The New (*)(*) boobs don't feel fake?  You mean to tell me  they have a lotta softness to them(like real ones?) while touchin'em? No hardness at all? Not at all.  They honestly feel really natural for implants of that size.  The certainly don't feel plastic like a lot of bad bolt ons.

You have to go experience them for yourself. She looks even more amazing and the new boobs feel and look fantastic.

Just got home from the awesomeness,  Was prvileged enough to be the first guy to get a dance with Jolie with her new boobs.  Not surprisingly, it was amazing as the additional boobs were just another addition to an already complete package.  The dance was hot, sexy and fun.   One thing was that hearing Jolie announced as DDDJolie is a trip and it is definitely truth in advertising.    Also had the usual amazingVIP with Kiara.  Kiara's another one of the girls who absolutely excels at the girlfriend experience.  She's got a great body, with terrific curves and really long legs.  She's also funny and charming to talk to outside the dances and is generous in giving time to customers, even when there's not dances immediately forthcoming.   Finished with a double 3 for 20 with both Jolie and Kiara, which was as amazing as it sounds,  The fact that both girls are so much fun individually AND  have terrific, super sexy chemistry with one another makes this particular pairing and dance the consistently best dance experience I've had.

I know there's one at Imperial, I think its Ithaca (sp?). She's got that look, but with longer hair.

Jeetkna12345 said:Tillrules said:Jeetkna12345 said:Tillrules get a life I have one. And once again, someone who can't counter my argument tries to insult me. Seriously, is anyone on this site capable of defending a position without insults? Jeet, just admit you backed off the position because you were afraid people (namely dancers) would be mad at you for being negative. Anyone with a clue knows it, so why not say it? No you don't! Hahaha. I guess you told me. I'm a changed man now that you have dropped that bit of brilliance on me. I guess you showed you're not a spineless wimp who doesn't have the balls to stick to his opinions. See? I can deliver stupid insults instead of being man enough to stand by my opinions too!

sal_acious said:Another one of my pet peeves- Girls who shove their nice shapely breasts in my face and then get mad at me cause I wanna suck on'em. GREATEST. POST. EVER!

I've had the same thing randomly happen both on mobile and desktop. But of course, when I randomly liked a post to reproduce the error, my desktop let me like the post.

@sax: I understand and my reaction was primarily because you made a similar post in the other thread in the midst of a series of people doing it. I admit probably overraected. I don't agree Z was wrong to reopen the thread. The thread was closed improperly because of one persons agenda. Z couldn't have predicted Benn's childish hissy fit after he didn't get his way which is why I eventually asked Z to close it. @fry: I'm probably not the guy you want to hang with. I know very few girls and really don't try to meet girls if I have no intention of spending money on them. Its a waste of their time and mine. There are a number of guys here who go out of their way to talk to everyone and they'd be better choices. Just know that their familiarity leads them to have a less realistic view of the conversations and what the dancers are thinking. But there are better choices if you want someone to introduce you and such.

Ron Mexico said:wha? Let me put it this way. You are on a website that talks about topless and nude women giving lapdances and doing carwashes... maybe cartwheels... who knows... There are no more REAL issues than things that have to do with... women - whether topless, nude, dancing, hot, farting, getting boob jobs or whatever else you can come up with. There's is no WINNING an argument here, nobody cares. NOBODY is reading it, we've all learned the same lesson, you goto the last page, read the last post and if it's SHIT, you're outta there... You aren't going to change anybody's posting style, you can't harangue someone into posting more info if they don't want to... I looked at your post above and you wrote about some dancers being "evil"... yikes! Look, these are mostly 18 to 30 year olds. Some are better prepared to go into this business than some others, just like anything else. Some came up through, probably a pretty serious school of hard knocks, then they come into this situation where in many ways, it's encouraged to mislead guys in one way or another to get them to do an extra dance, move up to the VIP section or whatever, they're not evil, they've just learned to look at guys as cash dispensing systems and this is what you have to do to extract that cash from the system. The "hobby" really isn't that hard to figure out, you don't need someone to tell you what's what. You walk into a strip joint. You presumably have CASH. Girls will try different tactics to get you to spend that cash on them. If a girl is promising something "more" than what you would rationally expect in that situation then it's your own damn fault if you fall for it. If you knowingly agree to pay more to see what happens that's called GAMBLING, and either it pays off or you walk away a few minutes later saying, "nope, she scammed me" and... you move on, filing that experience away for future reference. Anybody who thinks they are going to pick up a stripper on these message boards is obviously delusional. What's the most important info I could get off this site? WHO is the hot blonde in the Corona commercial with the band Everest playing “Let Go”? I can walk into any strip joint - cold - and figure out fairly quickly if there's a girl I like or not. Are you going to turn down a girl you really like because somebody on a message board told you she asks for tips or had a bad dance with? Of course not... you have to experience it yourself... you can't depend on people telling you who to dance with, it's absurd. You are an experienced customer, of course you can spot the hustlers right away.  I wouldn't do the same things now I did a year ago.  Because i had to learn the truth about what happens.  That's what I'm talking about when I say people need information.  If we've learned the truth, then why not share it with new people?    I'm not talking upselling here.  That's the job, I get it.  But there are a lot of girls who do a lot more than that.  Like I said, there are dancers who intentionally manipulate men into spending money on them not only in the club, but outside the club.  Not paying for sex either, but manipulating the person into believing that something personal exists and using that to get money out of the customer.    I've had it done to me and I've had girls tell me about doing it to guys.  Many of them are quite heartless about it.  That's pretty evil to me.   And as to your comment about being delusional about this site, people are delusional about it on every level.  How many times do we see a new member who comes on board and asks everyone out?  I pointed that out in the other thread.   And how about the guys who come on here and think the girls are their friends because they send PMs to them?  Think they know better.  That's my point.

Ron Mexico said:Do any of the arguers have big tits and know how to use them? LOL! It doesn't matter where you go on the internet, stock message boards, sports, whatever, somebody has parked themselves on that board and decided they are the last word. Arguing about something of no importance whatever is fun but at some point you have to decide what the enjoyment factor is for YOU. LouASS and I have had some fun on the NBA board but it's just silly, it's not like we're trying to win some argument, it's just banter, we're obviously just sports fans - who see the world in a vastly different way... which is actually very interesting... but anyway... MORE forum posts about... BIG TITTY, SPREAD CHEEKY (Jeff Bridges describing "Ordinary Peepholes"). How about a mass protest demanding that DVNH waitresses be topless? That's something that's really important to ME. Super hot 18 year olds bringing me a friggin Pepsi... TOPLESS!!! Ho-ly shit! I'd give them a $20 to make singles and when they came back... giv'em another $20 to change into singles, just so I could get a few more topless moments... heh, heh, heh... dirty, lecherous old man... blaaaah... LOL! Hey... whatever happened to Rouge and their "topless" waitresses? That lasted for... about a week... anyway... Now, everybody go play the Kevin Garnett "chug" game. When he says, "motherfucker", which he is apt to do... and it's easily seen on tv, you chug a beer or something... OK, the big post above was my last serious post on this subject.  It's pretty clear where I stand and people can either like it or live with it.   Now, as to your comments. several of the arguers have tits and I cannot comment as to their abilities to use them, because I've never tried them out.  And believe me, I'd be happy to just joke around about certain subjects and I'd certainly rather talk about big tits than old twits who suck up to dancers with big tits (and asses).    But unfortunately, that doesn't always work out here.   I don't keep those arguments up just for the fun of making people look bad with my arguments.  Like I said above, I do believe these are important issues and hate that there are a group of people who instead of dealing with REAL issues like topless waitresses and big tittys are more concerned with protecting their own interests and sucking up (as opposed to sucking breasts, an activity I whole heartedly approve of).  This post was edited by Tillrules at June 3, 2012 6:46 PM PDT

Z Bone said: Sax said: Customers, do you want to talk about clubs and strippers in excruciating, brutal detail? Start a private group. Call it "ROBS, KNOBS and GOBS." Talk about who are the ROBs. Who polishes knobs, and who gobs after a dance... I'd join that group just to find out what gobs are. It sounds gross but I like gross. Sax said:But getting worked up over this BS? Posting dozens and dozens of posts going back and forth about who insulted whom, who is lying, who is provoking, who is right or wrong? Get over it. That is so 1995. I know, because I was there.Chill, people. Sage advice old wise one. I think people who used to be on ASSC know what real flame wars are and newbies of the Internet that I see on here and even Facebook don't know anything about that stuff. People seem to get easily offended and get into silly arguments over nothing.   Remember the days when we used to have fake flame wars just for fun? People are so serious now. Like you said in this post, let's not forget this is just a stupid website for strip clubs. This ain't some political website for debating pros and cons of propositions. Since the original post was obviously directed at me, do you think I should just stop arguing with people?  That I should just let people mislead new and inexperienced members?  I know you've told me differently in PM, but I have to admit it sounds like you are adopting the same position everyone else is.

This is obviously directed at me, so I'll address it. I'm going to forgo a number of pointed responses I could make about this post and try to have a civilized discussion. My issue with your idea, which has been broached before is that it kind of defeats the purpose of the site to have everything private. That was the entire point of that thread, This is not supposed to be a site for private groups. Its supposed to be a site where people who do not have information about this hobby to get information about this hobby. A majority of the members here stumble onto it because it has great SEO and appears at the top of pretty much any search regarding strip clubs in California. So its safe to say that most people finding this site are NOT veteran SC customers. With this in mind, my concern was and remains that if people are controlling the flow of information, then there is no way for new members to get it. If the only info being exchanged is (as was admitted in the thread) being constrained by the open nature of this site and by people who do not have the best interests of their fellow members in mind, but have more interest in supporting their favorite clubs or dancers, then the info can't get to the people (namely members new to the hobby) who need it. And I'm not talking just stuff like mileage info, but a realistic view of how strip clubs operate. The things that can happen to an inexperienced patron who falls for the wrong dancer and her hustle. AND BEFORE THIS BECOMES A DEBATE ON THAT ISSUE, LET ME BE CLEAR. THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF NICE, RESPECTABLE, HONEST DANCERS (INCLUDING MANY ON THIS SITE, I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY DANCER ON THIS SITE WHO IS A HUSTLER) WHO DO NOT MALICIOUSLY HUSTLE CUSTOMERS OUT OF MONEY. MY COMMENTS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS BEING ALL ENCOMPASSING ABOUT EVERY SINGLE DANCER, BUT ADDRESSING ONLY THOSE DANCERS WHO ARE NOT HONEST AND RESPECTABLE. Let me explain my own experience a little further to illustrate. Most of the things I point out are the things I wish I had been able to read a year ago when I got back into this hobby. I was ridiculously naive at that point and I admit I did some pretty stupid things. But while I was admittedly stupid, it was, at least in part, because I didn't know any better and I bought into several hustling dancers. And before anyone tries to argue that it was just me being stupid (which again, I readily admit), look at the new members of this site as an example. How many times is there some new member who joins and immediately starts asking dancers out? In the last month or so, there was a few who did it publicly, like the guy who kept asking dancers if they wanted to get high with him or the guy who's posted his actual phone number more than once asking if any dancer wants to talk to him. I'm sure the dancers see this a whole lot more privately. The point I'm making here is that new members who are new to the hobby have no idea of the way things really work. The reason I say many of the things I say is that I wish I had been able to see someone pointing out how mercenary and evil SOME dancers can be. AGAIN, NOT ALL OF THEM, SO PLEASE DON'T TRY TO TWIST MY OPINION IN RESPONSES. Or even pointing out some of the basic sales methods that even the nicer dancers use. Information is all important in this hobby. The more you know, the less you can get hurt. And if the only information getting out is a saccharine version where everything is nice and real and honest with every dancer, then the new people are not getting the sort of information they need to protect themselves. So that's my reasons for pursuing certain arguments. You don't have to agree with them, but I expect them to be respected.

ZBone, just close this post. Its obvious that no one's going to have an actual intelligent conversation at this point and will just keep acting like children.,

E92 said:I have too short of an attention span to read this whole thread, but I will chime in anyway. The shroud of anonymity on Z2 is more transparent than Z1, and I've held back a little on my reviews as a result. I've been accused of being a shill for certain clubs. At the same time, I have voiced my displeasure at certain club practices and overall poor experiences on some occasions. A certain amount of reading between the lines must be done. If I have very little to say about a dancer, that's my signal that you should try someone else. Sometimes I will directly say that I took a girl for a test dance to TOFTT and have said I would not repeat. YMMV. In the end, the information is out there, and you should take it with a grain of salt. Everyone (PLs and dancers alike) work for their money, and no one likes for it to go to waste. But that's the nature of this hobby. Furthermore, I'm an admitted PL. I get fantasy and entertainment from these clubs, and will continue to do so. Treat me well and you'll have a repeat customer. I'll tip a dancer well, and she will be motivated to remember me and know that I'm a future source of income. Other dancers will rely on mystery and try to maximize their one-time earnings. Hey, it's your business model. Anyway, I've droned on long enough. I surely hope that comments and threads will not be deleted unless they violate TOS. For myself, I will keep enjoying the show, and reporting back to Zbone. I'd like to think my trip reports are accurate and useful, but as is the credo of this hobby...YMMV. E92 just stated and proved one of my central arguments here.  Something that's gotten lost a bit in the arguing.  He admitted that he has held back in his reviews because of the lack of transparency.  He's used coded comments a bit, but that is to be expected.   That's an issue in my mind.     And the out and out attacks on anyone who voices the wrong negative opinions (not to mention the requests to delete posts and actual post deletions) makes this even more and more likely.  Which was my original point all along.  It got twisted by people into some sort of absolute hate or some such, but my original point is that these things are taking place and we should try to stop them in the future.  That's all I ever meant with this thread.

Dani said:I try not to be too negative in general but this thread needs to end .. its so back and forth and petty .. i got so lost reading it, thinking why would anyone get so worked up over some forum posts ... everyone on here cept the girls have handles .. so whats the worst thing that could possibly happen? "don't make me angry or i'll be forced to bust a CAPS LOCK on your ass"?! lol its silly ... lets get back to talking about dancers and clubs and good or bad times... but to go on an internet rampage is foolish .... just sayin' ... SMILE :D In all honesty, that is completely condescending, Dani.   Like Carmen did before, you are trying to get this conversation to end by shaming everyone involved and belittling the arguments.  The whole "stop taking it seriously" thing is an insult, frankly, especially when you consider that there have been repeated personal attacks made here.    I agree that it is foolish to go on internet rampages.  But arguing an important point is that this is not going on an internet rampage, which again is obviously an insult calculated to shame me into ending this conversation.  Like I said above, I was ready to end this, but I came back not only to the exact action I was complaining about taking place again (the thread was closed and my original point actually deleted) and also to multiple posts insulting me.    The whole point is that I was trying to talk about dancers and issues affecting this board and then everyone got upset.  Ironically, the only person who actually argued without insult was the one person who had a right to be upset, namely Zbone, since I was calling his site's operations into question. But he has both publicly and in PMs debated the issues and respected my right to have an opinion.   But he was the only one who did.  When the people who were defending their actions could not defend their positions, they started insulting me instead. 

Jeetkna12345 said:Tillrules get a life I have one. And once again, someone who can't counter my argument tries to insult me. Seriously, is anyone on this site capable of defending a position without insults? Jeet, just admit you backed off the position because you were afraid people (namely dancers) would be mad at you for being negative. Anyone with a clue knows it, so why not say it?

Since the original post was removed by the same person who tried to close this discussion, let me reiterate what it said:This is a post I made about a month before I made the original post:At the same time, the inability to post any negative reviews kind of hurts the site. Let's say there was a ROB at VIP, for example. Is anyone going to post a negative review, knowing that girls from VIP read this site and are active on it? Probably not.Or take it a step further and lets say a new dancer becomes active on the site. She friends everyone who asks, returns every poke and message, and charms every customer on the site. But then when the customers visit, she's a total ROB. Not a low mileage, great personality and overall great in the club experience, but a straight up air dancing, upselling witch. Every bad dancer cliche all rolled up into one. What happens when the member writes an honest review of her? He'll get jumped on by both customers and dancers.Then less than a month after that, someone made a negative post about a dancer from VIP and the exact thing I predicted happened.  The post was mysteriously gone and the same poster who had called the dancer a ROB was suddenly defending her as being great to dance with.In the course of this post, the original poster has said he was never "bullied" into it (but notably never said no one asked him to remove the post), but refused to explain his 180 degree change in opinion.    The thread then degenerated quickly into side discussions as the usual suspects jumped in to try to stop the point from being acknowledged.  Then as these discussions usually do, it turned into people trying to insult me when they could not or did not want to address my points.   One of them, a mod, closed the topic for a bit and when Zbone reopened it, went on a childish rampage against me. That's where we are.

Benn said:From now on I will stay away from anything you say or do on this board. Go ahead and ruin it if you like Its not my board its zbones, Just stay away from me OK, you're the one who's trying to stop the spread of information on a board designed for customers to get honest information, but I'm the one who's ruining it?  I fail to see the logic in that, but I've missed things before.   But let's be clear here.  I will post whereever or whenever I please.   If you or anyone else says something I disagree with or you continue to keep trying the same shit you've done here, then I will comment on it.  Like I said to Carmen above, this is a discussion board, if you post an opinion, you are opening yourself to responses, whether you like it or not.

I know I shouldn't rise to such juvenile bait, but I'm going to. This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Instead of actually discussing the point in question, Benn has chosen to respond in an utterly childish manner to try to obscure or devalue the position. Instead of trying to insult me to avoid the point, why don't you actually try to defend your position with a logical argument. Apparently, the concept I've been discussing, namely that people (and I'd presume you are one of them) are acting behind the scenes to control posts is OK with you. If that is the case, why not try to explain why its OK instead of trying to attack me personally. You obviously think it is OK to, at least contact someone and ask them to remove a post, so explain your reasons. Or keep acting like a spoiled child. Your choice.

sal_acious said: Tillrules said: Let's say there was a ROB at VIP, for example. Is anyone going to post a negative review, knowing that girls from VIP read this site and are active on it? "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE SOME BALLS AND STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND" TALK ABOUT WHETHER YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES TO PREVENT NEGATIVE POSTS? How long have you been on Zbone Tillrules? I'm thinking not very long, because EVERYONE knows I have outted Many Many AIR DANCERS and RIP OFF BITCHES and RIP OFF CLUBS on Z 1.0 and I don't give a fuck which club she works at! Even if she works at VIP, I'll still out her ass! And Mr Spawn knows it too. Alright you want a negative review? Here it is! I think LUCI LOO is a SELFISH GREEDY BITCH that ONLY cares about MONEY and if you don't tip her she'll give you a AIR DANCE and won't let you touch her. There you go bro. You happy now? Ok now as far as cASS is concerned, I'm not sure yet. I'm hopeing Sticky Icky does a Full Review of her. Now, do I think there's people working behind the scenes to prevent negative reviews? You're going to have to ask RONIN that question, because he's the one (not Jeet) that deleted that post thread regarding LUCI LOO!!! I'm not saying he was "bullied" into deleteing it, but I know for a FACT that several people asked that he delete it. Exactly who those people were and whether they were dancers or not I don't know. And one more thing. if the dancers on here like me - Grrrreat!! But if they don't - oh well tough shit their loss. Thank you, I expected nothing less than that sort of honesty from you.  Like you did with me, I chose to push you a little to get it.   Its nice to see my theory here confirmed by someone else.  Any one still want to step up and say this isn't happening?

Benn said: Carmen said:In all honesty all this arguing and going back and forth and nitpicking makes me not want to post in forums at all....It makes me feel like someone is going to inevitably nit pick something I said or how it's all "bull shit propaganda commercialism" rather than just my honest opinion and then someone is going to jump to my defense and then BOOM a whole new war all over again... and I honestly don't understand the fixation with wanting to hear negative things...I guess I'm just not that person, I avoid drama and I hate focusing on the negative things in life, I prefer to be a happy person and to focus on the good things in life.... (benn)  it needs to get moved to somewhere else.. There are too many good posts getting buried in the Forum Section and the Tweet board just doesnt allow for more than three sentences or so.  Tillrules has lots to say. Give him his own section or blog or whatever other term you want to call it. Let people blast off, just dont bury everything else. FMIAF The problem is that no one would go into that section.  People would simply ignore it.   And frankly, its in these forums where the comments are being made and where the issues should be addressed.  This is supposed to be the place where discussions are held, not some side site.  This idea again screams of you trying to stop negative posting and control the content so it's only stuff that supports the clubs and dancers.   And moreover, I'm not the one who sidetracked the conversation here.  You guys are.  And if those discussions are so great and still relevant, then maybe you should comment in them and keep them on top.  The reason certain discussion get buried is because no one is interested in them.

Carmen said:In all honesty all this arguing and going back and forth and nitpicking makes me not want to post in forums at all....It makes me feel like someone is going to inevitably nit pick something I said or how it's all "bull shit propaganda commercialism" rather than just my honest opinion and then someone is going to jump to my defense and then BOOM a whole new war all over again... and I honestly don't understand the fixation with wanting to hear negative things...I guess I'm just not that person, I avoid drama and I hate focusing on the negative things in life, I prefer to be a happy person and to focus on the good things in life.... Then don't post.  Now I'm being way more blunt than I feel with that response, to be honest, but I think it needs to be said.  Carmen, I respect that you are the only dancer who comes into arguments and actually discusses things as opposed to making one post where you blast the person you don't agree with and then never respond.    But if you want to be part of a discussion board, you have to expect responses to your opinions.  I certainly do and you (or anyone else) can't come on here, make a comment that could be taken negatively and then expect everyone to not respond to it.   Also, its not a fixation with hearing negative things.  It's simply understanding that those things need to be addressed and trying to keep certain people from stopping these things from being addressed.   Customers who read this board for the first time and who are new to the hobby need to know that the potential pitfalls of taking what is said here, especially from dancers who are selling their product, literally.  I don't try to get people to hate dancers, just encourage a healthy cyncism.

cASSandra said:Anyway Tillrules... can you just like- stop posting about this? You're being extremely nitpicking to ALL the members and I know you're a big bad important lawyer and all, but maybe you should just take on more clients if you like to argue so much and do it in the court room. Like you said, this site is supposed to be about reviewing clubs and dancers... not for your conspiracy theories. OK,  I was actually ready to just let this go, but you really need to stop with the insults. You do it often, to be honest, jumping into a thread and insulting the person who's view point is different than yours, but without actually addressing the situation.   I'm not going to stoop to your level and reply in kind, just note that I am not the one who's trying to end an argument by insulting the person making it in lieu of actually defending a position.   The fact that a member changed his review is hardly "nitpicking"  It cuts to the point of the site, which is to get out honest information, both good and bad,  to customers.  If customers are censoring themselves, regardless of the reason, its an important issue.  That's my point.

lopaw said:Esmeralda scares me. Too much woman for me to handle. I've danced with her.   Definitely a whole lot of woman, but a whole lot of fun too.

Manual said:@Tillrules: it's my new phrase when I have already made my point, usually with an argument with you, and will let other PLs decide if I am telling the truth or not. You can think you have proven me wrong, but I'll let other members be the judge of that. I am a shill?!? LOL, that's real original, I haven't heard that before. Which again, means after you've been exposed as having no point and trying to stop or derail the conversation.   Yes, you probably have been called a shill before.  Repeatedly.    You think maybe there's a reason that pretty much everyone other than the other shills says stuff like that?   You think is because you enter into every single conversation with any negative comment in it and try to stop it?  Yet another example, today LouAss made a comment agreeing with me about people not making negative posts and you immediately jumped in to defend the new site and deny the obvious.   I mean you keep claiming you've been negative before on this new site, but I've asked you 3 times to point out one single negative comment about a dancer that you've made and you've yet to do so.  As you said, the other members can decide what you are.

Manual said:@Tillrules: You can believe what you want to believe. @PLs: Use your own judgement! @Manual:  Is that your new catchphrase?  The one you're going to drop everytime you're proven wrong and exposed yet again as a shill?   @Everyone else:  Use your own judgement, but understand that not every customer member on here is posting to provide information you can use.  Some people have either obvious vested interests (club affiliated members for example) and others want to protect the dancers, as if being nice to them on here will make the dancers like them (which I know, from dancers, isn't always true).     And before someone responds that I have an agenda, I've admitted that I do.  It's not being anti-dancer, which is what some people believe.  I've liked and still like quite a few dancers who I've met.  That does not mean that I don't have an honest view of the mechanics of dancer sales methods.   Honest criticism does not equal hate or bitterness.   My agenda is that I want new members and new people coming into the hobby to get a realistic view of how things really work.  I try to say the things I wish I had been able to read a year ago when I got back into the hobby.  Things that might have saved me a lot of money and pain if I'd read them and accepted them,  That's why I keep trying to stop people from controlling negative reviews and posting saccherine bull shit about being special to the dancers or having "PL Game"  (a contradiction in terms if there ever was one) or anything like that.   Hearing that sort of stuff from people who present themselves as authorities is what keep customers thinking the wrong way and making mistakes.  

sal_acious said: cASSandra said:Sal- you are so curious! Why not send in a mole to give you a second by second play by play of my dances YES I am! So does that mean you're not gonna chicken out this time and you're gonna let Mr Sticky or someone that's NOT on "The Dancer Protection Squad" come and test drive dat ASS and write a review??? Since you felt the need to use my phrase about the posters who protect dancers in quotes, which would seem to indicate some matter of disagreement with it, to use the argument you made at me, "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE SOME BALLS AND STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND" TALK ABOUT WHETHER YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES TO PREVENT NEGATIVE POSTS?      Iknow you called out Luci in the same threads I did, but while you've popped in here to make jokes with Cassandra and help divert the discussion to her so you could do your whole "i'm too cool for any girl that won't give me high mlieage" gimmick, you haven't actually said anything about the original post.   I know other posters have been asked to remove the type of explicit posts you make when they touch on the protected clubs.  If anyone was getting this sort of input, I'd expect it to be you.  Unless, of course, you're just another sheep in wolf's clothing who's more concerned about whether the dancers on here like you than encouraging honest reviews.

Manual said:@Till: Benn is known for not only going off topic, but rambling in general. For myself, I try to go with flow of the conversation most of the time. The tangential discussion just came up bro. Actually, your first post in this thread was a blatant attempt to take the focus off what I had said and change it to my experiences with bad dances.  You've done the same thing in other threads that started to get negative.    And as to Benn, I don't usually see him post here unless its to jump to some dancer's defense or pimp VIP.  Moreover, it was actually Cassandra that originally changed the direction by thinking I had been talking about her with regards to the reviews being deleted.  Then when I tried to end that, by clarifying it.  Thats when you and Benn jumped on a chance to derail the discussion by making it about Cassandra's merits.

Jeetkna12345 said:Bro, till rules, I didn't post several topics about luci. You need to relax. You're treating this way too seriously. This is so ridiculous. I'm done with this thread. Everyone for the record nobody bullied me and I like luci and Cassandra. They give good dances check them out if you want. Peace out. So now the girl (again, this is about Luci not Cassandra so don't insert her as a defense) who you described as an air dancer and a ROB and about who you said no one should ever go see is a dancer who  "gives good dances"?  Come on.    Obviously, you've decided to deny what you said, proibably to curry favor with dancers.   So if you weren't bullied. then why remove the review AND now suddenly have a nice opinon of a dancer you obviously did not enjoy?  That's the issue I have and the issue I was talking about.

And once again, the dancer protection squad has managed to derail a critcial post by creating a side issue about something I never even mentioned. I guess I have to accept that criticism of protected clubs and dancer inst going to be allowed. They've been trying from the second post to do it and they've fianlly managed it. Congrats guys, another job well done.

Manual said:thanks for clearing that up jeetkna. fwiw, i think Cassandra gives amazing dances!!! and she is interesting to talk to! the most real girl at the SC that I have met. Except he didn't clear it up, just made the same vague deflections he did when he reversed his opinion in the first place.

Jeetkna12345 said:Okay so I've been off the forum for a bit and when I get back I have a bunch of messages about bullying which totally confused me. Know one bullied me and I removed that post for other reasons. And all I said in the post was that I came to see Cassandra and she wasn't working that night. I never called her a rob. Matter a fact I hear she gives amazing dances. So everyone check her out if you get a chance. Tillrules you need to relax you blew this whole thing out of proportion. No one pmed or bullied me if I don't like a dancer I'll say it. So why remove the post? You posted a severely negative review of Luci (again, I never said you criticized cassandra) and a few hours later, you not only removed it, but you were suddenly all about how she was so nice and we should all stop being mean to her. That's a pretty drastic change in just afew hours. You say you'd say if you didn't like a girl, but when you actually did, you backed out of it. I have a hard time believing that no one contacted you to ask you to take it down? I know its being done, its been done to me and more than one poster has admitted contacting people to ask them to remove posts. I can't see any other reason for not only having a change of heart but then suddenly defending the same girl as being great. In fact this post has the same feel as your post defending Luci. You are trying to make the matter go away and be concillatory. That makes it hard for me to credit your claims that you just decided to remove the post.

Stickyicky, read my post above. She's not the one who was a ROB and had a bad review. It just became a side argument when I apologized to her if my previous posts had made her feel like she was the one accused.

sal_acious said: Tillrules said: I am genuinely sorry...........I can admittedly be abrasive (or worse, to be honest).  I will not apologize for comments that I do mean to make, but I did not mean, in any way, shape or form, to imply that you were a ROB.  if that is what it seemed like, then again, I genuinely apologize to you. Hey Till, since you you're always talking about how no one posts any Negative (I prefer to call them Honest) Reviews of the dancers anymore, WHY DON'T YOU HAVE SOME BALLS AND STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND POST A HONEST REVIEW of cASSandra??? And - You don't need to kiss cASS's ASS by apologizing so much, you're starting to sound like RONIN. LoL Because the only review I could do of her is this:  I saw her once at DVNH.    She was really attractive and did a good stage show.  I had the chance to dance with her, primarily because she was (like everyone else at DVNH) never on the floor and after the one lineup they did when I was there, she did the NoHo run not only to the back of the room, but to the manager's office.  Since that's the sum of my experience with her, that's all the review I can do. My post wasn't kissing her ass at all.  I made a statement that she took in a way that was not intended, at least in part because she didn't read all my posts since I explained the reason I mentioned her in a post.  I apologized for it because although I'd be the first one to call someone out as a ROB, I have no knowledge of whether she is or not and a serious accusation like that should not be made unless you know the truth personally.  Although I believe any ROB should be called out, I do not believe that this board is here to strike out at dancers if the attack is not merited.  If I actually had danced with her and did find her (or any other dancer on this board) to be a ROB, then I would post my honest opinion.  But I'm not going to allow it to seem like I had accused her of anything when I had not.  It's not fair to her or to me, which is why I apologized. This post was edited by Z Bone at May 28, 2012 5:48 PM PDT

cASSandra said:when did jeetkna ever write a review "singing my praises"? and anyway i'm not a "ROB" and i don't give air dances so none of this even applies to me. The deleted review post was not about you, it was aboutthe night that jeetkna went to VIP looking for you (as sal noted) and danced with Luci.  If you got the impression that I was accusing you of being a ROB or stating that someone else had, then I am genuinely sorry,   Though I have never danced with you myself, your reputation is exceptional and I have no doubt you deliver a high quality dance to every customer.   The reason I brought your name into the conversation is that jeetkna made multiple posts to you and about you expressing his desire to meet you and get dances.  My supposition was that your name may have been mentioned when the people who asked him to remove the post approached him, as if the negative review would affect the ongoing conversations between you and jeetkna.   Again, I can admittedly be abrasive (or worse, to be honest).  I will not apologize for comments that I do mean to make, but I did not mean, in any way, shape or form, to imply that you were a ROB.  if that is what it seemed like, then again, I genuinely apologize to you.

des said:So as I'm reading it... the problem isn't lack of ABILITY to post bad reviews. The problem is people not wanting to take any flack for their views and removing their posts? It sucks that people aren't leaving reviews they really mean and opinions they aren't willing to stand by. At least... until one of you says something mean about me and I can bully you into taking it down. ;P That's exactly the point, des.  The fear of taking flack and the fact that people are not only actively giving flack for bad reviews, but acting behind the scense to stop them is the problem I was pointing out.   If someone does write a negative review of or a dancer or club, of course, they have to expect the dancer or club to respond to it.  If someone calls a dancer a ROB, then the dancer has every right to tear him up and/or correct his comment.  The right to honest comments goes both ways here, if we criticize dancers or clubs, we have to expect them to come back with a response.  The two things I don't like are (1) the mentalty that we shouldn't ever post negatives at all and (2) when its not a public response, but a behind the scenes effort to get people to remove the posts to protect the dancer or club.

@zbone: I don't ever think dancers talk to us as non-customers. Even on here, they are still dancers talking to us as potential customers. That status never changes. @Manual: That fantasy ending moment is usually funny to me, especially the one after you have danced with them. The second you tell them, you're not buying any more dances, the funny, sexy girl who sold you the dance is gone and you're nothing to them. But my disagreement with you is over "real talk." As zbone said, all strip club conversation is just BS to sell the dances. I kind of view conversation and good dances the same way I view extras, if a girl does those things with you, she probably does that with nearly everyone, other than the obviously bad customers. This is not an insult to them, in fact its a compliment. To me, it means the good dancers always make the effort to make conversation and give good dances. Using your example of Cassandra (I could probably insert 10 names in here and it'd be the same discussion), I've never danced with her, but every person who has reports her to be exceptional. In other words, she's really nice to all of her customers, makes them all feel special and gives them all great dances. This applies to even with the girls who I do like personally in the dancer/customer context. I know that once the session ends, the conversation ends. The conversation is not because they like me or my conversation, it's to get my money. They will give the same great service to every customer. One of my favorites even waved at a new customer over my shoulder while hugging me good bye, Which is not a negative, its simply the truth and its their job. Even my favorites have that moment when the money's gone and they're mentally moving on to the next guy.

I'm not saying PMs should be abolished or anything like that. You guys are creating a side argument here. The point I'm making is that they shouldn't be used to control information and pressure members behind the scenes to change reviews. That's it. I'm going to give up this discussion now. Obviously, no one else is concerned about the issue. But then again, that was my point in the first place. The type of thing I predicted would start happening a month ago has happened and will keep happening because its obvious what the real purpose of the site has become.

Manual said:If Z inspected PMs, they wouldn't be private! lol. They'd still be private and hidden from other members.  Just the attempts by members to stop negative posts would be subject to scrutiny.  And if the possibility of review existed, then maybe it wouldn't be happening.

The poster was jeetkna (i forget his full handle), the posts were last Saturday. My issue with making this a self policing issue is that if people are using questionable means to convince posters to change posts, the posters aren't going to want to reveal it. The means I'd be concerned about are newer, more naive posters being told that if they say bad things about dancers, they won't be as liked on here and/or in the club. For example, the poster in question made at least 5 posts directed at Cassandra and in fact noted in his negative post that he had gone to VIP to see her, It would be my concern that one of the things that was used to make him take down his post is being told it would effect his relationship with her or other dancers on here.   I did not know that you could not read PMs, it had been my impression that this is the case in that a person contacted me about a PM I had sent to someone else. When I asked the original member if he had discussed the PM with the person who contacted me, the original member told me no. And I'm not asking about every single PM. Just if there are situations when posts are removed. If you cannot monitor the site all the time, my understanding is that there are other administrators who work with you. So getting notice of deleted posts should not be an issue.   Finally, as to privacy, the use of this site is voluntary and by definition, subjects the information to scrutiny. This is onviously an exagguration, but if I told you a member was sending PMs offering to sell crack, you would investigate it. Although it is clearly not as severe as drug sales, using PMs on this site to try to control information is still an abuse of the site and that abuse should be enough to subject people to a loss of certain amounts of privacy. This post was edited by Tillrules at May 26, 2012 2:43 PM PDT

Manual said:PLs: use your own judgement! This might be the most solid, basic advice I've seen on the board.  Yes, intel can help with big things, but every piece of intel is colored by the perspective of the person giving it.   At the end of the day, the only person who can judge whether a customer will like a dance or dancer is that customer themselves.   We all have different tastes and standards and even though you should always be aware of what others have seen, the only person who can decide if you like a dancer is you.

Two interesting side issues zbone and manual have raised, As to the getting aroused things, I'm going to agree in part with it, It would be hard to rub your sex organs on people all night and not be at least somewhat aroused by it, Think of our experience as customers, we are aroused when women rub themselves on our laps, its the central theory of lap dancing. I won't doubt that dancers can feel arousal during their shifts, I just don't think its because of individual customer attractiveness. At the same time, I rarely. if ever, believe a dancer when she says I'm turning her on. It's a pretty standard hustle that I've had done on me dozens of times. My personal favorite version is the "your gentle touch is making me so horny." I mean, look at the dancer work announcement posts on this site. How many times is the dancer's post something where she claims she's going to work and is horny, so come see her? Best story along those lines I had happened at VIP one time. It was a dancer I'd danced with before and we got along pretty well. After the dance, she told me the dance had made her hot. I thanked her, but noted that dancers say that a lot. She then proceeded to place her finger in her thong for a second and then touch my arm, so I could feel that she was indeed wet. I didn't believe she came and she never said it, but I thought it was a great sales move and tipped her more than usual for it. The second issue is attraction. Without being too arrogant, I am a good looking guy who works out constantly. I've been told by women in the real world who are in the dancer age range (say 22-35) that I am good looking. All of the girls I've dated in the past year are in that same age range and all at least reasonably good looking. It's probably why I tend to futilely attempt to get dancers to go out with me, since in the real world its not beyond the realm of possibility that a pretty girl in her late 20's to early 30's would date me, since it has happened frequently. Having said that, I don't think any dancer ever came to talk to me because of my looks. While what zbone says about dancers looking for more attractive men first is possible, I don't think its attraction to the person as much as it being more pleasant for the dancer to engage in a simulation of a sex act (which is what a lap dance is) with someone who is attractive as opposed to someone who is unattractive. At the same time, like I said above any statement a dancer makes about her customer's physical attractiveness is suspect. All of us have our vanity. Using myself as an example, I am proud of how good I look and do like when it gets noticed. A smart dancer can take one look at me and see that noticing my looks (usually asking if I work out) is a great way to appeal to my vanity to help the sale. We talk about the fantasy a lot here. At least part of the fantasy, especially when you are younger and more attractive, is that these super hot, sexy girls will want you. I think if you ask dancers if there are differences between selling dances to older customers and younger customers, I'd guess a major one would be that younger customers are more vain about themselves and there is a lot more having to pretend to be attracted and interested in them.

@zbone: As to my "harsh executive summary of position," your comment was "this is indeed a re-boot...it's NOT the same site. Things are very different now. Some people will like it. Some won't. It is what it is." Which is exactly what I said, the site has changed from the old zbone which was a customer site to the new zbone and "it is what it is." Back to the topic, a quick summary of events appears in my original post. But basically, a poster made a negative post about dancers from VIP and then a couple post threads discussed the issues. All of these posts ended up deleted. I have been told that certain posts were deleted based on PMs from other members. I'm not all that internet savvy, but I'm pretty sure that as the webmaster, you could access the deleted posts somehow. The disturbing thing is that the original poster not only removed his review, but then suddenly less than 12 hours later, entered into a discussion about the same dancer he had called a ROB and sang her praises. If that doesn't show evidence of serious tampering, I don't know what would. I don't think there's a difference between asking someone to remove the posts and bullying, IMO. It's not bulllying in the literal sense here, like people being told that they'll be hurt or something, But rather certain members asking for posts to be removed to protect their clubs. It's more a proactive effort to keep certain negative information off the board. I don't know what has been said entirely. I know that one poster asked another to remove the post as inappropriate, but it was clear from both sides that the only reason the request was even made was to protect the club in question. As to stopping it, like I said above, I'm not sure you can. One thing that came up in this thread is that asking people to remove posts is not against the TOS of the site. Maybe the first step is to alter the TOS to make asking for the removal of negative information improper. The problem there is that you'd have to get the member to report it and that would be difficult since they probably removed it in the first place due to peer pressure. Another idea is to pay attention to these issues a bit more. If there are a rash of deletions all of a sudden, maybe you need to look into the situation more closely. For example, I am reasonably certain you have the ability to inspect our PMs. A simple check of the PM's of the poster in question would show if he had been contacted, who contacted him and what requests/statements were made. The other thing would be to actually take action if something is found. I know you like to encourage free speech and I respect that. But if people are trying to stifle that, then measures need to be taken. Even if its something as simple as making the PMa on the issue public. In other words, if someone is trying to stop reviews, then let it be public. This is another zero tolerance issue with me, if you get caught, whether you're a dancer, club employee or popular customer member, you will be subject to this sort of airing out of your PMs if you abuse the privilege.

I think Ron's hit on the important point. While I will never accept the argument that a dancer ever feels chemistry with a customer, I do believe we do feel it with them. And their job is to make sure we believe the chemistry exists. Because of this, s girl who doesn't appeal to one customer might be the best dancer ever to another. While sometimes we all make choices based on physical type (boobs, weight, etc....,), it all comes down to how the dancer makes us feel. Not just in the physical sense, but in an emotional sense. The best dancers have the gift of finding the right notes to hit to get a customer to feel a connection to them. This explains the difference in opinions on certain dancers. I have no earthly clue who Riley is, but she seems to be someone who's always called a ROB. But there may be customers who feel they connect with her and can accept a lower mileage lap dance, even borderline ROBness due to the feeling she has elicited in them.

I've said it before, but the whole "you have to approach me" thing at DVNH was a deal killer for me. We aren't there to pick them up or impress them, its supposed to be the other way around. I don't have a problem with a dancer going over to her customer and passing me by. I don't know who that guy is, he could be showering her with money. But to avoid all the customers and sit in back waiting to be approached sucks. Especially since the one or two who do are never the best looking or most desirable. Its the same ones over and over.

Where are these reviews on this site? I'm really not trying to be a dick, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing what you'd say in a negative review.

Ironic fact about my preferences: I've danced regularly with 4 girls over the last year. Three of them have very similar body types, curvy with big boobs, but still very fit. Not only that they are all the exact same age, born within 6 months of each other. To complete the story, I recently became attracted to a girl in the real world. She's not the same body type as the three girls I was discussing (she's a fitness type), but she's also that same age. This post was edited by Tillrules at May 24, 2012 9:54 PM PDT

Manual said:FWIW, I don't mention it to every dancer, only dancers that I think would be receptive, like dancers that I've already talked to on Z, or dancers with positive reviews or dancers I already know. it has worked for me! You would have to be completely stupid to mention a negative review of a dancer on Z to that dancer if u are first meeting her. I won't be able to write negative intel without retribution if I out myself completely. if one dancer knows who I am, then word will spread. I guess that makes some sense, but in all honesty, I can't remember you ever making a negative comment.  You've even stated that you now choose your dancer candidates carefully to only get good ones.  Which would be the point of talking to them on this site, IMO, and it seems to be a waste of your time spent talking to them here if you don't use it to reap benefits in the club.     Then again, I'd probably blow my cover if I tried to talk to someone here and then hide it in the club.  My "voice" (for lack of a better term) is rather distinctive and I've made my job and some general facts about myself well known (like how much I work out).   Without mentioning zbone, I'm just another reasonably good looking guy in good shape.  I mention zbone and what I do and any dancer following the site at all is going to know who I am.   I'm still not sure I believe that a dancer is going to give you a better dance because of this site, but I can accept (since I've used it for this purpose) that it gives you a discussion point to move the conversation along.   Admittedly, I've had more success pointing out the less flatterring elements of the site, like PL Pros and the funny things people do and say, but it is a discussion point.

Manual said:I out that I am on Z, but I don't out my handle. Probably a good policy, even if I fail to see the advantage in revealing it at all. I'm not asking this to be an ass or insulting, but what reason would there be to mention the site and not mention your handle?   You are well known on the site and unlike someone like me, rarely say controversial or abrasive about the dancers.  It would seem to me that that outing yourself to a dancer you find to be trustworthy would be a positive to you, at least to some extent.   My opinion has always been that the only logical reason to mention this site at all is if you'd already spoken to the girl on the site.  This goes back to our basic discussion about whether girls will put positive weight (for lack of a better term) on zbone membership.    Although even I've accepted that girls are becoming amenable to the site because it's proven viable to meet new customers, it's still up in the air as to whether the old image of the site still survives.   So unless you've discussed the issue with the dancer in question, its still hard to know for sure whether they will put positive weight on the membership.  I do know there are girls on this site who pay lip service to the change and do advertise here, but still by and large have a negative view of the membership, even when they've seen some folks don't fit that mold.  It wouldn't seem to be worth the risk of them still clinging to the old image of the site.

That's two questions really. It is appropriate to post a negative review of a dancer if you had a bad experience, even if its a dancer on this site. Its sort of the point of the site, even if the site has been neutered with the reboot. But as Manual noted, there are ramifications for doing so especially if they know who you are. As happened to you, it can get real world ugly for comments on here. I have had a dancer who knows my handle get upset with me in the real world because she interpreted my comments as referring to her, even when they didn't. Which is why I won't out myself in the future, even if I know the girl is on here. There's no benefit to revealing your zbone membership (regardless of what dancers trying to recruit new customers and certain people who want to believe it say) and it can only be a negative.